Entry 9: RE: "Snow White" - Full Disclosure

Posted by: Bradley Redder

Well, since this will likely be the last word on Snow White (though with all of your pestering attempts to side-step the movie itself, it feels a bit like the first word), I'll admit that my rating of the film was bumped up when I saw your lax 2.5 stars, shocking after reading your post-screening texts describing it as "a waste of money" and "boring crap." So I took my modest 3 star rating and elevated it to bring out the ire in you.

That said, I changed nothing in my review, and still feel that it was a solid summer movie (easily the best to date). I have to admit that don't really understand your complaint about the CGI. Maybe I'm just a little thick in the head, but you're essentially criticizing something you say you liked. I'm far from the world's biggest fan of CGI, but I think Snow White's use of it was much more elegant than a typical movie; rather than pit a bunch of animated characters against each other, whether giant, super-powered, robotic, or beast-like, it used it more in its backgrounds to shape and fill out its world. You say it relies on it completely, and I say you're mistaken. The Avengers relies on it far more than this film, and at least this one does, as you say, make it look cool. While I would have loved to see an actual set with natural light that looked this beautiful and inviting, at least I got that beauty in some form... Visual appeal/beauty being another element lacking in the CGI-laced Avengers.

Not to simply bring back your words on other films, but given that my reaction to this particular film is heavily influenced by its position as the first gratifying film of the summer, I'll continue doing so anyway. You praised Tim Burton's visuals in Dark Shadows pretty highly, yet for some reason decry the same use of CGI backgrounds in Snow White? What up with that?

Again, I'm not saying that it's not a legitimate complaint, and also again, I am increasingly upset by the strong reliance on CGI in movies these days, but I can't complain too loudly when it is used to such a visually appealing end as it is in Snow White, and I think the thoroughness of its beauty softened me up and put me on tilt to accept and genuinely care about its admittedly stock characters. And if that sounds like a condescending comment, it's really not, but is really said with the utmost admiration. The film is far from perfect, but very far from "boring crap."

Entry 8: RE: "Snow White" - CGI all up in here!

Posted by Chad Van Alstin

Of course it has CGI. I'm not opposed to CGI; I'm even known to occasionally love it.

My point was that Snow White relies entirely on CGI to push the film forward. Every scene seems to be about creating a cool looking effect, and it only sometimes succeeds.

It sacrifices story just to create some cool looking images. Let's face it, this is a fairy tale you can read in three minutes, and they stretched that story into over two hours, adding very little in the process. There's so much filler in Snow White, and all of that filler is just CGI for the sake of CGI.

I just don't see the emotional element here that you talk about in your review. There's nothing about this movie that even pushes a human element -- even falsely. Who am I supposed to empathize with? These are incredibly fictional characters from an age old story, and they haven't changed a bit.

The dwarfs look fantastic. However, I wasn't able to relate to them, or care about them at all. Their presence in the story helped provide familiarity -- nothing more. They added absolutely nothing to the story, and I don't think they were a necessary addition to the film.

Entry 7: RE: "Snow White" - (Scratching Head)

Posted by: Bradley Redder

Hm.

"There's a lot of CGI here."

Hmm.

"There's so much damn CGI here that at times it actually starts to bother me."

Hmmmmm.

"What I saw was a film loaded with CGI in virtually every background and every scene."

Umm... ... ...Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.

"If you're looking for a movie that's limited on the CGI and instead focuses more on set design and actors..."

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.

"...I may have some examples (wink, wink)."

Hm.

So let me get this straight... I ask for a legitimate complaint against something in Snow White, rather than an unnecessary comparison to Lord of the Rings, which you clearly see as a better film (I, again, may or may not), and you choose to attack it for having too much CGI? CGI that you find visually appealing, even! I am going to do something uncharacteristic here and not launch into a long-winded diatribe on the topic, because I'm confident that even your Lord of the Rings cosplay lackeys will see the absurdity in your approach. However, I will address your complaint against Snow White.

I never said that there was no CGI in the film. Of course there's CGI in it... it's a film produced in 2012! Isn't it contractually obligated to have CGI? What I did say was that it was used only when necessary, and that it elects smaller moments over huge, long, drawn-out, tireless CGI action spectacles. Instead it uses its CGI to create a world, and an atmosphere, which it does quite beautifully, as you say so yourself. How many times did someone get hit with a sword, only to shatter into glass?  We saw this maybe eight or ten times... Ravenna used those glass beings as misdirection, and that's exactly how the film treats them. There could have been a huge battle with them scaling walls on ladders while their buddies attack from behind with catapults and flaming arrows, but instead we get a few to give us an idea of what they are, and what Ravenna is capable of. And most of them are hit as background action to a more present, a more flesh-and-blood dramatic event: the showdown between Snow White and Ravenna. How many times did someone turn into butterflies? I don't remember seeing that, so I'll say once? How many times did someone turn into a flock of birds? Ravenna did this a few times, maybe three? Either way, I say CGI was used when needed, and more importantly, the real sets, the real costumes, make-up, props... The entirety of Snow White's production design were carefully created to seamlessly incorporate its CG elements... When something isn't real, it still looks good... I'm still drawn into the world of the film by whatever it is, be it glass soldier, flock of birds, or apple (though I don't remember that as CG, maybe when it decays over twelve years to show the passage of time and transformation of the landscape under Ravenna's evil, hopeless reign?).

Given that our time is running low, I'd like to hear what you have to say about the dwarves. I spent a good portion of my review raving about this, and am curious to know what you thought of them. I say they looked exquisite, and were also good characters. And boy, that list of adjectives must be getting pretty long if you're spending so much time on it. You can post it in installments if you want... It doesn't have to be all at once.

Entry 6: RE: "Snow White" - Even the apples are computer generated!

Posted by Chad Van Alstin

Ok, really? Did you really not think Snow White was loaded with CGI? There's so much damn CGI here that at times it actually starts to bother me. How many times did someone get hit with a sword only to shatter into glass, turn into butterflies, or morph into a flock of birds?

Even the apple given to Snow White by the Evil Queen is computer generated. 

There's a lot of CGI here. If you're looking for a movie that's limited on the CGI and instead focuses more on set design and actors, I may have some examples (wink, wink). See, this is where talking about Snow White with you is going to be really hard; we can't even agree about what was on screen.

What I saw was a film loaded with CGI in virtually every background and every scene. While most of it looked great, it still relies entirely on CGI to give the film its look and feel.

I have no idea what movie you saw, but we didn't see the same one.

Entry 5: RE: "Snow White" - Apples

Posted by: Bradley Redder

This ploy you've conceived with your silver (maybe downgraded to bronze?) tongue almost seems like a trick the seductive, manipulative Ravenna would devise in Snow White. She had that devious touch that was amplified by a hopeless lust for power via immortality that got the best of her in the end, too. So stop trying to get me to bite into those poisoned Lord of the Rings apples of yours. By the way, how are those adjectives for LOTR characters coming along? Talking in circles naturally leads to the omission of thoughts that weren't originally part of the track, but could you kindly make a pitstop from your loquacious raceway to answer the question, please? If not, then how about we shut the fuck up about Lord of the Rings already...

Entry 4: RE: "Snow White" - The Unfairest of Them All

Posted by: Bradley Redder

From the brilliant Lord of the Rings

I'm not entirely sure why you posted that video, but thank you for doing so. My guess is you secretly feel guilty about the bullshit you're trying to pull with this Lord of the Rings question, and want to be found out, otherwise you wouldn't have chosen a video that so clearly delineates our roles in its scenario... I read it as I'm the wronged angel who is being set up by a crooked lawyer (you) by using cheap theatrics to shock the jury; everybody knows I'm in the right, but how can you stare at a child accusing molestation and tell him to shut his mouth? In our case, if you're not following, the child and anatomically correct doll represent Lord of the Rings.

I don't understand why you need a frame of reference to talk about this. Have you that little to complain about the actual film that you're willing to spend half of your posts re-iterating a useless question? If we talk about a sci-fi film (like next week!) do I have to tell you how it stacks up to 2001 or Star Wars? Do I have to compare a movie that has sharks to Jaws? It makes no sense, this question you insist on asking. If you say my praise is baseless, that's fine, but poke holes in the actual praise I've sewn... Don't pull out a whole new tapestry. And for what it's worth, I think Snow White owes its existence much more to Tim Burton's demonically overwrought Alice in Wonderland rather than your "precious" Lord of the Rings trilogy.

Maybe your brain cannot wrap itself around my praise because it's already occupied wrapping itself around those circles in which you're busy talking. You're question still makes no sense, and has no relevance, and I stand by my parallel question. You know my feelings on those films, and all you're trying to do is frame the argument in such a way that I cannot have a fair chance at being taken seriously: If I say Snow is better than Rings, you blast me for taking down such a highly praised cinematic achievement, and invoke popular opinion to bury me as a contrarian, yet if I concede that Rings is better than Snow, you take the comment out of context and say that I admit it is a generally inferior film.

Well, I won't give in. We can discuss that trilogy of yours on here in its own week, if you like, but I think you owe it to our legions of fans to actually make a legitimate point on Snow White at some point.

Entry 3: RE: "Snow White" - If it would please the court...

Posted by: Chad Van Alstin

The reason why my question matters, Bradley, is because I don't think Snow White would have ever seen the light of day if not for the Lord of the Rings films. This movie borrows so heavily from the formula set down by Lord of the Rings that it's impossible not to make a comparison; unless you always imagined Snow White battling trolls and sieging castles, army in tow.

Further, Lord of the Rings is the only real frame of reference we have when judging a fantasy film like Snow White. Your questions about the Godfather trilogy and Star Wars trilogy are far, far less relevant, as those are completely different types of movies. Their influence of each other is not obvious.

Basically, I think we need to put your review of Snow White into perspective -- how does this fantasy epic match up to others in the genre? I admit that, since most people with quality taste laud the Lord of the Rings, my asking is a little bit of a dirty tactic. However, I think it's still very relevant to the discussion nonetheless.

Look, there's a lot we can debate about with Snow White, but my brain is still having an incredibly difficult time wrapping itself around your baseless praise. I need a proper frame of reference; I need to understand where you're coming from.

So, is Snow White a better film than Lord of the Rings?

Entry 2: RE: "Snow White" - Objection

Posted by: Bradley Redder

When did you become a lawyer? Didn't you go to school for Communications or something? Either way, that's great. I'm proud of you... I just wish you would have told me about it. I would have sent you a basket of fruit or some fancy soaps when you passed the bar exam. Now I feel like a jerk.

Regardless, your courtroom antics will get you nowhere here. How dare you ask such an irrelevant question to open the proceedings here! How dare you invoke the most well-received fantasy series in recent memory, if not all time, one on which you know my contrary feelings already, and ask me to compare a completely unrelated film to it in the hopes of winning the jury over to your side by default... How dare you! Well, I refuse to give an answer (which may be yes, may be no) to that question until you explain why it is necessary to this discussion. 

In my client's defense, to address to the only actual point you made, before all of your tantalizing theatrics, I think the amount of character development is perfectly suitable for this type of film. Fairy tales rely on stock characters like princesses and heroes, and stock dynamics like good vs. evil. Why should my client, a re-imagining of such a story, be any different? What I did like was what the actors brought to these portrayals... Charlize Theron's slightly over-the-top, yet all-too-human jealous rage and the way Rupert Sanders captured her expressive eyes (my favorite such shot from the trailer (in fact the image displayed on the the trailer to the right (which oddly isn't really in the trailer)) didn't make it into the film), oozing menace and manipulation. And Chris Hemsworth's noble grieving drunkard has the same spirit he has as Thor: Very strong, powerful, and knowledgeable, yet emotionally vulnerable (in the film Thor, not in the all-encompassingly invulnerable The Avengers) and compassionate to those whom his actions affect. 

But if character in fantasy films is what you seek, and Lord of the Rings is what you're pushing, then how about giving me an adjective or two describing, oh, I don't know, Gimli? Legolas? Arwen? ...Elrond? And "stoic" or "good with bow or axe" are not acceptable.

In a related quandary, I think it's safe to say that without the success of The Godfather and the original Star Wars films popularizing the trilogy format, a trilogy like Lord of the Rings would never have seen the light of day. Before we continue, I would like you, Chad Van Alstin, to answer a simple question for me:

Is Lord of the Rings a better trilogy than both The Godfather and the original Star Wars trilogies?

Please, try to keep your answer objective. I just think the legions of This Week's Movie fans deserve to hear the answer, before they decide to cease taking you seriously.

I know you refuse to actually sit down and watch one of those LOTR films with me for fear of me exposing their flaws to your blissfully ignorant blind adoration of them, but perhaps you'd be willing to discuss them on here some week when there is no worthy release in theaters... Say June 15? Although I don't know if I have forty-six hours to spend watching a film trilogy between now and then, so maybe another time. That is, if you think you could actually find enough in them (objectively, something you seem to be fond of) to actually defend. If not, could you please pick up my gauntlet and hand it back to me?

Entry 1: RE: "Snow White" - One Fantasy to Rule Them All

Posted by: Chad Van Alstin

Your praise for this very average film officially makes your film taste unpredictable -- and that isn't a compliment. While I think that there is some value to be had here in terms of the visuals, everything else about this movie really falls flat.

I wouldn't have minded the complete lack of character development  if this movie was just more fun. Sadly, I didn't really enjoy any of the action at all; there's just nothing special about it.

 What we have here is an art film that isn't smartly done, and instead relies entirely on its visual presentation (which  has some serious issues) to sell itself. Snow White is a really weak movie. While I don't necessarily mind an action-packed Snow White re-telling, I think that some care could have been taken to bulk up the characters and setting.

I think it's safe to say that without the success of the Lord of the Rings movies a film like Snow White would never have seen the light of day. Before we continue I want you, Brad Redder, to answer a simple question for me: 

Is Snow White and the Huntsman a better film than the Lord of the Rings trilogy?

Please, try to keep your answer objective. I just think the legions of This Week's Movie fans deserve to hear the answer, before they decide to cease taking you seriously.

Brad's Take: Snow White & the Huntsman - ***1/2

I walked into Snow White & the Huntsman with the honest thought that there is no reason for it to be good... The second re-imagining of Snow White in as many months, this time as a big-budget, epic action/adventure spectacle? Pshaw. Perhaps it was just the suffocating air-headedness of this season's summer offering thus far draining my optimism and conditioning me to expect to just not give a damn about what I'm watching, because not only was this new Snow White the first movie of the summer that has kept me from dozing off for a cool five minutes, but it also seemed surprisingly fresh and original at times.

And why wouldn't an adventurous take on Snow White be good? While I'm not familiar with the actual fairy tale, I have seen the Disney film, and anyone who's truly honest will admit that something needed to be done differently than it was in that overrated albeit gorgeously animated classic. In this incarnation we see the dark side of Charlize Theron in a brilliantly-conceived performance as Ravenna, who seduces her way into marrying the king of an unnamed land, killing him, and locking his daughter, Snow White (a sometimes bland, sometimes rousing Kristen Stewart), away for years, while she steals the youth of the land's maidens. Snow White's number comes up when Ravenna discovers that Snow's heart will grant her eternal youth, and after Snow escapes into the dark woods, Ravenna coerces The Huntsman, a grieving drunkard of a widower (played with the humor and gentle masculinity that I've come to appreciate from Chris Hemsworth) into bringing Snow back alive.

It's a rather simple premise, but I find myself abundantly willing to continue laying it all out, but a good movie is not about the what, but about the how, and Snow White is, for better or worse, pleasingly fundamental. Director Rupert Sanders, perhaps thanks to clear-cut fairy tale conventions, gives us instantly understandable characters whose motivations are never ambiguous, yet lets each of his actors add touches that transform dangerously stock characters into real people... who happen to live in a fantasy world where magic exists. Sanders makes us care about what happens to these people, even though we essentially already know, something that seems to be a difficulty among recent action spectacles. He takes the time to introduce us to this world and its narrative, before slinging the giant trolls and mischievously hostile dwarfs upon us, and mercifully keeps the CGI to a minimum, using it only when necessary, while most of the time focusing on actual sets and props, and flesh-and-blood people.

Most impressive of all, Sanders manages to make this large-scale epic feel somewhat low-key and personal, bathing his characters in seemingly natural light and using a lot of effective handheld camera-work to draw us in. Visually, it's absolutely hypnotic. While generally solid all-around, Snow White is certainly at its best when carving its own unique way through the material. It's handling of the dwarfs is inspired, to say the least. I'm not sure how the filmmakers pulled it off, but they cast half a dozen of the best character actors to play them, and somehow made them look absolutely believable at half their actual height. I spent the second half the film in awe of whatever sorcery resulted in Ian McShane and Toby Jones appearing to be three-feet tall and still be able to carry dramatic weight.

Banal narration in the prologue aside, even the moments Snow White feels boxed in by its limiting conventions are handled with subtle grace. Surprised to find myself so involved in the film two-thirds of the way through, I started to cringe when anticipating how the mythical true love's kiss that revives Snow White after biting the poisoned apple would be handled, only to be soothed by its tenderness and sincerity. The scene is followed immediately by another potentially cringeworthy call to arms, by Snow White herself, that blindsided me into a rousing sympathy for the cause.

Though somewhat standard at times, Snow White & the Huntsman elects for smaller, more emotionally engaging and perceptually intriguing moments, rather than never-ending, CGI-filled, mindlessly droning action sequences, and it's all the better for it. A technical wonder with occasional short periods of narrative dullness, it's quite memorable, if not downright extraordinary.

Chad's Take: "Snow White and the Huntsman" - 2.5 Stars

Snow White and the Huntsman  is a complete re-imagining of the classic German fairy tale. While this latest adaptation contains dark imagery aimed at adults, it's still the same fairy tale you've always known, right down to the Seven Dwarfs. This may make some of the purists happy, but it will unfortunately leave many moviegoers wanting a whole lot more.

Yes, in this version of the film there are battles between armies and some vicious fantastical monsters; however, these elements do very little in terms of adding something new to the same old story. Instead these scenes feel like additions made only to meet the audience's fantasy film expectations.

The epic battles (which don't seem all that epic) feel like an aside to the fairy tale and don't mesh very well into the story. We're told that Snow White is supposed to lead an army against the Evil Queen and restore her father's kingdom, but the reasons behind Snow White's charisma aren't properly articulated and are never well examined.

This Week's Movie - 6/4-6/10

Posted by: Bradley Redder

Snow White & the Huntsman
Directed by Rupert Sanders
Written Evan Daugherty and John Lee Hancock
Starring, Kristen Stewart, Chris Hemsworth, Charlize Theron, Sam Claflin, Sam Spruell, Ian McShane, Bob Hoskins, Ray Winstone, Nick Frost, Toby Jones, Eddie Marsan


Well, it's that time of the week... The time when I pretend like I had any plan of posting this announcement sooner than now, apologize, and then describe my expectations for this week's movie as though I haven't already seen it...

I'm sorry for the tardiness of this post... I meant to announce next week's movie a few days ago, when we decided we'd be doing the new take on Snow White, Snow White & the Huntsman, but time just got away from me, and now it's Sunday night again. I should probably be feeling a little bit more dread about this upcoming viewing experience, but I'm strangely optimistic that it will be satisfying in some way. We'll see. Reviews this week will be posted Tuesday, with discussion to follow throughout the rest of the week.

Also, how cool is the image below, with the "play" button perfectly placed beneath Charlize's eyes and above her lips, with the triangle looking like a surrogate clown nose?